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#1 2015-03-25 12:58:44

The Deacon
Member
Registered: 2015-02-27
Posts: 14

PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

PA does a Joe Stalin on "proto prog".

What came FIRST does not matter at Prog Archives forum - its what THEY SAY IT IS.

"We have established that Proto-Prog actually has two very distinct and different definitions. One is a very limited stylistic definition used by re-sellers of used vinyl at Record Fairs and the other is the more meaningful (in our context) wider classification that we use here. Confusing the two terms is wrong-thinking and using the "Record Fair" term here is misleading and disingenuous."  -Dean (former bigshot at PA)


HaHa!

I'm not confusing the two terms since THERE IS ONLY ONE TERM. (Except in noob-Prog Archives world, that is.)

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#2 2015-03-26 00:23:13

Svetonio
Member
Registered: 2012-03-11
Posts: 2155

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

^ I ignore what that PA' ex-admin is to moan since he, as an admin, insulted me several times at the PA' Public Forum, for example here

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#3 2015-03-26 02:21:24

The Deacon
Member
Registered: 2015-02-27
Posts: 14

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

It is enough that PROG MASTERMEN KNOW THEMSELVES what proto is - exactly as you, Svetonio, claim: that heavy Hammond sound.

It is less a classification than a SPECIFIC SOUND.

(Even though I would LIKE to see it as a distinct genre, I conceed it is not.)


This is the term coined not only by "flea"market style pushers, but by the origional bibles: the mail order catalogues in pre-internet days. Many of these were run by big name dealers and COLLECTORS of some stature- people like Walter Geersten, Collignon,Roberts, Smith,Pawelko,Tuss...

This is a strictly-bordered term that was in effect for two/three decades before ever the  God ProgArchives took it to mind to re-cast the term.  Because the true meaning of proto was put out there by true collectors ,it should be respected.

PA should man up and change that fucked section to EARLY PROG, or EMBRYONIC PROG because that is what THEIR meaning is.


Sorry PA ego-boys, that term is TAKEN.


Back in the day, when I did tape or lp trades  with SERIOUS Euro and American collectors and ,in my correspondance, I wrote the word "proto"...they knew EXACTLY what I was looking for. And I can clearly state it wasn't The Who.  They all knew because they read and gleaned the same info I did from those precious old mailorder catalogues.

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#4 2015-03-26 06:32:02

Svetonio
Member
Registered: 2012-03-11
Posts: 2155

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

The Deacon wrote:

It is enough that PROG MASTERMEN KNOW THEMSELVES what proto is - exactly as you, Svetonio, claim: that heavy Hammond sound.

It is less a classification than a SPECIFIC SOUND.

(Even though I would LIKE to see it as a distinct genre, I conceed it is not.)


This is the term coined not only by "flea"market style pushers, but by the origional bibles: the mail order catalogues in pre-internet days. Many of these were run by big name dealers and COLLECTORS of some stature- people like Walter Geersten, Collignon,Roberts, Smith,Pawelko,Tuss...

This is a strictly-bordered term that was in effect for two/three decades before ever the  God ProgArchives took it to mind to re-cast the term.  Because the true meaning of proto was put out there by true collectors ,it should be respected.

PA should man up and change that fucked section to EARLY PROG, or EMBRYONIC PROG because that is what THEIR meaning is.


Sorry PA ego-boys, that term is TAKEN.


Back in the day, when I did tape or lp trades  with SERIOUS Euro and American collectors and ,in my correspondance, I wrote the word "proto"...they knew EXACTLY what I was looking for. And I can clearly state it wasn't The Who.  They all knew because they read and gleaned the same info I did from those precious old mailorder catalogues.

Also for that abbreviation *prog*, we should thank to those pre-internet records dealers. Their sales lists - at A4-sized papers with a paper clips -were  written on a typewriter, and then photo-copied in a number of copies. As the records dealers were too tedious [of course, we should forgive them as back then there were not Wndows and copy-paste] to type again and again on the proper list that full long term *progressive rock*, for every prog-rock album, and as back then there were many of the prog-rock albums on their lists, they were type simply *prog* as shorthand as well.

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#5 2015-03-26 13:03:04

The Deacon
Member
Registered: 2015-02-27
Posts: 14

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

Svetonio: I don't know why you even bother posting at that Prog Archives when you know there is a smarter forum: Progressive Ears. (They did a thread on proto a whiles ago and listed some 100 proto bands and most were right-on. Most were organ-dominated.There were ,though, a few strange choices for me - like Fairfeild Parlour.)


Prog ears has noobs - sure, but they also have a fair number (who do NOT post at Prog Archives) of those-in-the-know.


I should add: although I have been equally banned from both forums, I respect Progressive Ears. I do not respect PA forum.


Notice the caveat/proviso they gave that PA section right from the start - as if they anticipated trouble: "Proto-prog AND PROG-RELATED thread."

Well, I suppose one can think of it this way: PA does good service. Afterall , it IS misleading the stupid noobs. We don't want the stupid to get too smart, do we.

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#6 2015-03-26 16:58:31

The Deacon
Member
Registered: 2015-02-27
Posts: 14

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

Here is the Prog Ears list of 100 protos.  I do not know if this is a true general concensus, or just the deliberations of a handful:

2066 & Then - Reflections!
A-Austr Musics from Holy Ground
Abacus - s/t
Ache - De Homine Urbano
Ache - Green Man
Affinity - s/t
Aquila - s/t
Arc - At this
Arcadium - Breathe Awhile
Arzachel - s/t
Battered Ornaments - A Meal You Can Shake Hands With In The Dark
Battered Ornaments - Mantlepiece
Atomic Rooster - Death Walks Behind You
Beggars Opera - Act One
Beggars Opera - Pathfinder
Beggars Opera - Waters of Change
Black Widow - Sacrifice
Bodkin - s/t
Bram Stoker - Heavy Rock Spectacular
Burnin' Red Ivanhoe - M144
Burnin' Red Ivanhoe - WWW
Catapilla - Changes
Catapilla - s/t
Cirkus - One
Colosseum - Daughter of Time
Colosseum - Valentyne Suite
Comus - First Utteranace
Cressida - Asylum
Cressida - s/t
Culpepers Orchard - s/t
Czar - s/t
Dear Mr. Time -Grandfather
Diabolus - s/t
Earth & Fire-same
East of Eden - Mercator Projected
East of Eden - s/t
Egg - The Polite Force
Egg - s/t
Fairfield Parlour - From Home to Home
Family - Family Entertainment
Fantasy - Beyond the Beyond
Fantasy - Paint a Picture
Fields - s/t
Frumpy - Frumpy
Fuchsia - s/t
Fusion Orchestra - Skeleton in Armour
Fuzzy Duck - s/t
Galliard - New Dawn
Galliard - Strange Pleasure
Gnidrolog - In Spite of Harry's Toenail
Gnidrolog - Lady Lake
Gracious - This is... Gracious!!
Gracious - s/t
Gravy Train - Ballad of a Peaceful Man
Gravy Train - Second Birth
Greenslade - s/t
Greenwood, Nicholas - Cold Cuts
High Tide - Sea Shanties
High Tide - s/t
Indian Summer - s/t
Jan Dukes de Grey - Mice & Rats in the Loft
Jody Grind - Far Canal
Jonesy - Growing
Julian Jay Savarin - Waiters on the Dance
Julian's Treatment - A Time Before This
Kestrel - s/t
Khan - Space Shanty
Kingdom Come - Galactic Zoo Dossier
Kingdom Come - Journey
Krokodil - An Invisible World...
Locomotive - We Are Everything You See
Love Sculpture - Forms & Feelings
Manfred Mann's Chapter Three Vol. 1 & 2
Marsupilami - Arena
Marsupilami - s/t
Mellow Candle - Swaddling Songs
Missing Link - Nevergreen!
Odin - s/t
Orange Peel - s/t
Out of Focus - Wake Up
Out of Focus - s/t
Pete Brown & Piblokto - Thousands on a Raft
Pete Brown & Piblokto - Things May Come and Things May Go but the Art School Dance Goes on Forever
Parlour Band - Is a Friend?
Procol Harum - Shine on Brightly
Quatermass - s/t
Quicksand - Home is Where I belong
Rare Bird - As Your Mind Flies By
Rare Bird - s/t
Raw Material - Time is...
Room - Pre-Flight
Samurai - s/t
Sandrose - s/t
Second Hand - Death May Be Your Santa Claus
Skin Alley - s/t
Spring - s/t
Still Life - s/t
Subject Esq - s/t
T2 - It'll All Work Out in Boomland
The Greatest Show on Earth - Horizons
Titus Groan - s/t
Tonton Macoute - s/t
Touch - s/t
Tractor - s/t
Traffic - John Barleycorn Must Die
Warm Dust - And It Came To Pass
Web - I Spider
Wind - Seasons

As expected, it is heavy on the UK labels, especially Vertigo,Dawn,Neon...

One thing that I think goes overlooked about proto is the fair number of HORN bands, like ,say, Heaven.


There are some rather curious choices on this list: Family, Fuschia, Mellow Candle (wtf?),Parlour Band.
And , of course, Traffic.   I would very much like to know what criteria are being followed by including these bands.

An important thing to consider in trying to delineate proto sound  from straight prog is that proto was more primative, less complex in composition. The time signatures were  generally orthodox. (Also but not exclusively: the use of the blues scale.)


Some rigidly stick to the rule that you cannot have proto in say 1974. I don't know where you stand on this, but , considering proto is a SOUND ,I myself do NOT tend to put a strict time limitation on it. Also certain countries, like Spain, came into prog at a later date, so there is nothing wrong with them having the proto-sound in say '76. (Although, frankly, I cannot think of a Spanish example just this moment.)

Canada had one or two  proto-sound bands in the required time-frame like The Medium - same lp ('69) but then again there was a band like Dionysos pumping pure proto into '72.


Two small countries that were surprizingly thick into proto, were Belgium and Denmark.  But perhaps this is explained by much inbreeding between bands.

Have you heard Jess & James? Would you consider this (the second lp) proto? They came out in Belgium (& UK) but were actually Portugese, I believe.

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#7 2015-03-27 04:07:28

Svetonio
Member
Registered: 2012-03-11
Posts: 2155

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

The Deacon wrote:

Svetonio: I don't know why you even bother posting at that Prog Archives when you know there is a smarter forum: Progressive Ears. (They did a thread on proto a whiles ago and listed some 100 proto bands and most were right-on. Most were organ-dominated.There were ,though, a few strange choices for me - like Fairfeild Parlour.)


Prog ears has noobs - sure, but they also have a fair number (who do NOT post at Prog Archives) of those-in-the-know.


I should add: although I have been equally banned from both forums, I respect Progressive Ears. I do not respect PA forum.


Notice the caveat/proviso they gave that PA section right from the start - as if they anticipated trouble: "Proto-prog AND PROG-RELATED thread."

Well, I suppose one can think of it this way: PA does good service. Afterall , it IS misleading the stupid noobs. We don't want the stupid to get too smart, do we.

I'v been visited Progressive Eears today, for the first time, and yes, it seems as a nice site.
PA is OK per se, I mean that idea of the most powerful prog resource is great, though some people there are very strange and it's often even impossible to understand their attitude.
But, sadly, we can find such a people everywhere at internet, and it really doesn't matter is that a music forum or something else, and we can't altered that.

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#8 2015-03-27 04:36:15

Svetonio
Member
Registered: 2012-03-11
Posts: 2155

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

The Deacon wrote:

Here is the Prog Ears list of 100 protos.  I do not know if this is a true general concensus, or just the deliberations of a handful:

2066 & Then - Reflections!
A-Austr Musics from Holy Ground
Abacus - s/t
Ache - De Homine Urbano
Ache - Green Man
Affinity - s/t
Aquila - s/t
Arc - At this
Arcadium - Breathe Awhile
Arzachel - s/t
Battered Ornaments - A Meal You Can Shake Hands With In The Dark
Battered Ornaments - Mantlepiece
Atomic Rooster - Death Walks Behind You
Beggars Opera - Act One
Beggars Opera - Pathfinder
Beggars Opera - Waters of Change
Black Widow - Sacrifice
Bodkin - s/t
Bram Stoker - Heavy Rock Spectacular
Burnin' Red Ivanhoe - M144
Burnin' Red Ivanhoe - WWW
Catapilla - Changes
Catapilla - s/t
Cirkus - One
Colosseum - Daughter of Time
Colosseum - Valentyne Suite
Comus - First Utteranace
Cressida - Asylum
Cressida - s/t
Culpepers Orchard - s/t
Czar - s/t
Dear Mr. Time -Grandfather
Diabolus - s/t
Earth & Fire-same
East of Eden - Mercator Projected
East of Eden - s/t
Egg - The Polite Force
Egg - s/t
Fairfield Parlour - From Home to Home
Family - Family Entertainment
Fantasy - Beyond the Beyond
Fantasy - Paint a Picture
Fields - s/t
Frumpy - Frumpy
Fuchsia - s/t
Fusion Orchestra - Skeleton in Armour
Fuzzy Duck - s/t
Galliard - New Dawn
Galliard - Strange Pleasure
Gnidrolog - In Spite of Harry's Toenail
Gnidrolog - Lady Lake
Gracious - This is... Gracious!!
Gracious - s/t
Gravy Train - Ballad of a Peaceful Man
Gravy Train - Second Birth
Greenslade - s/t
Greenwood, Nicholas - Cold Cuts
High Tide - Sea Shanties
High Tide - s/t
Indian Summer - s/t
Jan Dukes de Grey - Mice & Rats in the Loft
Jody Grind - Far Canal
Jonesy - Growing
Julian Jay Savarin - Waiters on the Dance
Julian's Treatment - A Time Before This
Kestrel - s/t
Khan - Space Shanty
Kingdom Come - Galactic Zoo Dossier
Kingdom Come - Journey
Krokodil - An Invisible World...
Locomotive - We Are Everything You See
Love Sculpture - Forms & Feelings
Manfred Mann's Chapter Three Vol. 1 & 2
Marsupilami - Arena
Marsupilami - s/t
Mellow Candle - Swaddling Songs
Missing Link - Nevergreen!
Odin - s/t
Orange Peel - s/t
Out of Focus - Wake Up
Out of Focus - s/t
Pete Brown & Piblokto - Thousands on a Raft
Pete Brown & Piblokto - Things May Come and Things May Go but the Art School Dance Goes on Forever
Parlour Band - Is a Friend?
Procol Harum - Shine on Brightly
Quatermass - s/t
Quicksand - Home is Where I belong
Rare Bird - As Your Mind Flies By
Rare Bird - s/t
Raw Material - Time is...
Room - Pre-Flight
Samurai - s/t
Sandrose - s/t
Second Hand - Death May Be Your Santa Claus
Skin Alley - s/t
Spring - s/t
Still Life - s/t
Subject Esq - s/t
T2 - It'll All Work Out in Boomland
The Greatest Show on Earth - Horizons
Titus Groan - s/t
Tonton Macoute - s/t
Touch - s/t
Tractor - s/t
Traffic - John Barleycorn Must Die
Warm Dust - And It Came To Pass
Web - I Spider
Wind - Seasons

As expected, it is heavy on the UK labels, especially Vertigo,Dawn,Neon...

One thing that I think goes overlooked about proto is the fair number of HORN bands, like ,say, Heaven.


There are some rather curious choices on this list: Family, Fuschia, Mellow Candle (wtf?),Parlour Band.
And , of course, Traffic.   I would very much like to know what criteria are being followed by including these bands.

An important thing to consider in trying to delineate proto sound  from straight prog is that proto was more primative, less complex in composition. The time signatures were  generally orthodox. (Also but not exclusively: the use of the blues scale.)


Some rigidly stick to the rule that you cannot have proto in say 1974. I don't know where you stand on this, but , considering proto is a SOUND ,I myself do NOT tend to put a strict time limitation on it. Also certain countries, like Spain, came into prog at a later date, so there is nothing wrong with them having the proto-sound in say '76. (Although, frankly, I cannot think of a Spanish example just this moment.)

Canada had one or two  proto-sound bands in the required time-frame like The Medium - same lp ('69) but then again there was a band like Dionysos pumping pure proto into '72.


Two small countries that were surprizingly thick into proto, were Belgium and Denmark.  But perhaps this is explained by much inbreeding between bands.

Have you heard Jess & James? Would you consider this (the second lp) proto? They came out in Belgium (& UK) but were actually Portugese, I believe.

Progressive rock albums by Family, Egg, Tonton Macoute, Khan and Gnidrolog, never were categorized as "proto-prog" by the records-dealers back in the day. Nor many others on the list. On the other side, Deep Purple's first four albums -  probably the best *proto-prog* albums ever recorded - aren't on the list; no doubt that the list was made by an ignorant person. Therefore, that list is not valid as a "proto-prog list" as well.

Last edited by Svetonio (2015-03-27 07:17:26)

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#9 2015-03-27 08:42:38

Nina
Member
Registered: 2014-10-27
Posts: 243

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

Svetonio wrote:

^ I ignore what that PA' ex-admin is to moan since he, as an admin, insulted me several times at the PA' Public Forum, for example here

lol lol Perhaps once someone has - in an evil time! - said he is a great genius. How and why, that God knows. However, he believed it. And since this otherwise peaceful and innocent man became an impossible grumpy with a terrible obsession that is unbearably to both himself and others.

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#10 2015-04-07 20:43:07

Magnus
Member
Registered: 2014-10-22
Posts: 141

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

The Deacon wrote:

PA does a Joe Stalin on "proto prog".

What came FIRST does not matter at Prog Archives forum - its what THEY SAY IT IS.

"We have established that Proto-Prog actually has two very distinct and different definitions. One is a very limited stylistic definition used by re-sellers of used vinyl at Record Fairs and the other is the more meaningful (in our context) wider classification that we use here. Confusing the two terms is wrong-thinking and using the "Record Fair" term here is misleading and disingenuous."  -Dean (former bigshot at PA)


HaHa!

I'm not confusing the two terms since THERE IS ONLY ONE TERM. (Except in noob-Prog Archives world, that is.)

Maybe he thought that he's the forum's Gestapo?! He's a pig!

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#11 2015-05-01 13:54:51

ivan
Member
Registered: 2014-11-15
Posts: 81

Re: PAs re-writes the meaning of "proto prog"

Magnus wrote:

The Deacon wrote:

PA does a Joe Stalin on "proto prog".

What came FIRST does not matter at Prog Archives forum - its what THEY SAY IT IS.

"We have established that Proto-Prog actually has two very distinct and different definitions. One is a very limited stylistic definition used by re-sellers of used vinyl at Record Fairs and the other is the more meaningful (in our context) wider classification that we use here. Confusing the two terms is wrong-thinking and using the "Record Fair" term here is misleading and disingenuous."  -Dean (former bigshot at PA)


HaHa!

I'm not confusing the two terms since THERE IS ONLY ONE TERM. (Except in noob-Prog Archives world, that is.)

Maybe he thought that he's the forum's Gestapo?! He's a pig!

He's an imposter.

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